My experience as a young woman was, that young men learned to be a different person, when not in front of their peers.

This was pretty universal where I grew up. I was surprised how men from (some, not all) other cultures were so comfortable showing each other that they cared about each other. That didn’t necessarily make them better allies to women, but sometimes it did.

None of this is good.

I’m a big fan of showing vulnerability, but it really is a journey to do this not just in relationships or with friends but go beyond that.

Good job on noticing that things can be better. Let’s make them so.

Yeah, it’s a very flawed premise for healthy relationships. The best case scenario is you find a partner that can be your everything including essentially your confidant and therapist.

In reality it leads to decades of repressed emotions and lashing out to loved ones because you can’t create or exist in a space where you can regularly and productively express yourself.

One of the craziest true statements is the legalaziation of divorce led to a decrease in murdered husbands. The time of yore are full of gore as they say

Historian here: People “back then” had the same brains we have, were as smart as we are and also were capable of feeling the same emotions as we are. And they totally were able to love. History is full of really awesome love stories. Letters of Note is a great resource to start exploring those emotions. They also have a book simply collecting love letters and you really might want to get this. The onslaught of love from historical people writing to each others will answer your question if men could have loved women back then. Just take a look at this letter of Richard Feynman writing to his dead wife and all the love and caring oozing out of it:

https://news.lettersofnote.com/p/i-love-my-wife-my-wife-is-dead

Those “traditional gender roles” the conservatives are pushing are not real. They were not real back then and are a power fantasy of bad people. There were gay people back then. And trans people. And men and women loved each others. Others were in loveless or abusive relationships. Go and read a few of those letters. They are awesome.

Most importantly, love requires both partners to be emotionally vulnerable, right? So then under gender roles, men can’t love women, only objectify them? Wouldn’t this make society one giant trauma factory where men are traumatized into detached sociopathy and women are traumatized into servitude?

Yep.

So what the hell are conservatives doing in relationships?

Exactly what you just said.

Are they all loveless relationships, or did all of the men cheat their gender role to develop romantic feelings?

A little column A, a little column B

If men didn’t cheat a little in the past decades where gender roles were the strongest, shouldn’t we see a kind of generational trauma so severe that violent crime is rampant and secure attachment is very scarce?

*Looks around at the state of the world…* Yeah, sounds about right.

(Most of that violent crime is in the form of unreported domestic violence, and that lack of secure attachment is masked by relationships held together by obligation.)

Glibness aside, you’re 100% correct, and the reason you’re struggling is because oh boy is it hard to be slapped in the face by this realization all in one go.

Is love possible under rigorously enforced traditional gender roles? Yes, of a sort, but it will never be healthy. It will never be truly free and alive.

But when we say “traditional gender roles”, do note how I added the “rigorously enforced” there. Breaking out of the conservative mold does not require you to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

I work in IT, I dress, look and act very masculine, I have a basement full of power tools, I know more than anyone should about guns, I play violent video games, I have a dog, I like to fire up the smoker on a Sunday and cook some ribs… There are plenty of ways that I fit the ideal of traditional male gender roles. And there are plenty of ways that I don’t. I could talk about the small ones, but the most significant would be that I’m bisexual, and I’m married to a woman who is in the army. And not, like, a clerk or something, she’s infantry. Could kick my ass ten times over, and I’m very comfortable with that.

The thing about traditional ideas of gender is that once you understand that they’re bullshit, you’re no longer required to accept the bad with the good. You get to pick and choose what you want from the buffet. My wife is one of the toughest motherfuckers you will ever meet, and a lot of her interests skew more “manly”. She likes military history, she’s a gun nerd, she plays shooters and complicated strategy games. But she still likes to dress up pretty and put on makeup, and she still likes to curl up in my arms and be the little spoon. I can cry at sad movies, but I can also be the tall, strong man who will wrap her up in his arms when she’s sad or stressed.

It’s not an either/or. It’s a whatever you want. Be the person you are most comfortable being, whatever that may. Because the best part is, when you are your most genuine self, people will be drawn to that. There is nothing, nothing more attractive than someone who truly knows who they are and gives zero fucks what anyone else thinks. The more you shed the rules that were imposed upon you, and the rules you imposed upon yourself, the more you grow into a version of you that makes you happy, the more people will be drawn to that. Don’t worry about trying to be someone else’s ideal. Be your own ideal. The rest will happen naturally.

You’re deconstructing all this at 23, you’re a champ. That’s young to have so much perspective on the failings of your upbringing. Really, mad props. I have nothing to add, let your worldview shift to something more sane, more in tune with your intuition. Be manly and vulnerable ! ❤️

I’m not afraid to cry. I tell my friends that I love them. I have two teenage sons that I kiss goodnight, every single day. I am a disability support worker. I do regular mental health checks on family and friends because I know what it is to be depressed, and how one person caring can be the difference between living and dying. I hug… A lot. I am 49 years old and I am male…

… Therefore, I must be gay. Please don’t tell my wife.

The stronger you are, the less afraid you need to be of getting hurt.

The very strongest people are the ones willing to show the most vulnerability.

The ones obsessed with showing how strong and invulnerable they are are actually the weakest and are basically putting on armor to hide it.

There’s a lemmy resident who made a video about this. He talked about the role men’s emotional deadness is shaped to play in relationships and how under this system we’re supposed to seek out women to experience our emotions through vicariously. Like, they experience beauty and sadness and joy and we just experience… them.

It’s fucked up. It explained so much about why people in my life hated my emotions and what me showing them implied. Men and women deserve better than to be made to exist like that.

I reject the premise of your question

The idea of “traditional gender roles” is bullshit, and the thought that men are not “allowed” to be vulnerable is absurd

I often see posts from the LGBT community that make me feel… Envious? Almost like I’m missing out on something. The social stigma of being “gay” for having feelings must’ve really gotten to me growing up. I feel there’s a blockage in my brain and emotions that tells me I can’t be a silly, goofy, caring guy, so I default to being quiet and closed off. Almost like my true potential as a person is being surpressed by the thoughts of myself and the beliefs of those around me.

I’ve thought about it, and I know I’m not gay, but as you describe in your post, there is some kind of societal disapproval around men having deeper emotions that I see in almost everyone around me, especially in myself. My dad and brother never vent, complain, cry, etc. They just wake up, go to work, and distract themselves the rest of the day. I can’t remember the last time I had a deep conversation with somebody other than my wife (we fortunately don’t have a “traditional” relationship in the sense of this post and can be vulnerable with each other). The last 2 times I’ve tried to communicate real issues with my dad, I’ve written real, detailed letters, which went completely ignored, twice.

I completely see what you’re getting at. Traditional gender roles DO seem to make love impossible, and the hyper-masculine(?) somehow make an exception to reproduce. At least that would explain why I was born, but my family has shown little care for the mental health or wellbeing of myself or others. It’s almost like the societal pressure to get married and have children override the actual feelings of love for others.

Vulnerability is not a weakness. It’s the opposite. It shows you have the courage to open up to people.

I relate to a lot of what you wrote. I’m a man who is very introverted and very shy. I’d say I feel a deep pathological need to express vulnerability. I’m sexually submissive and I like expressing my feminine side as well. Being the less desirable male, my shyness sure hasn’t done me any favors. Just be yourself, masculinity and/or femininity can be what ever you want it to be. Besides, they’re ain’t nothing manliar than being yourself.

Congrats on seeing thru the facade so young. It’s kind of ironic, the more a man “tries to be manly” the weaker they come off. It comes from a deep insecurity that they don’t think other people will view them as “strong” so they go out of their way to “appear manly” so they can prove to others and themselves that actually, they really ARE manly, cuz again, deep down they aren’t so sure.

You can see this when a man gets hyper- offended if someone calls them gay. Someone who knows themselves, maybe even explored a little, and is super confident in who they are and what they like would not even think to be offended if someone calls them gay.

Your problem is the “traditional gender roles”. Traditions are crap because they don’t evolve. You aren’t traditional. Don’t look for traditional.

So, how do you actually be vulnerable as a man? Asking for a friend